Diplomat, politician, writer. Shashi Tharoor, the Congress lawmaker from Kerala’s Thiruvananthapuram, wears many hats and all with aplomb. The Lok Sabha member, in conversation with Opoyi, speaks on his various roles, his worldview and the COVID-19 pandemic that has brought the world to its knees.

About the face-off between India and China in Ladakh, the former diplomat warns against the ‘increasing rapaciousness’ of Beijing and says that India must insist on restoration of the status quo ante. The three-time MP also strongly believes that the post-pandemic world will see the rise of isolationism and protectionism, one that is moving towards deglobalistaion.

Read all this and more in a detailed candid interview here:

Opoyi: Many experts say that the lockdown announced in March was a premature decision and the unlocking too soon. Your comments?

Shashi Tharoor: I think the government’s short-sightedness and, in some cases, deliberate indifference to the welfare of our migrant workers is undoubtedly the main driving cause behind the present crisis. Even the one thing that most people agree that the Centre got right, which was to declare a lockdown at a relatively early stage, was also undermined by the way they did it — their complete lack of planning.

This caused the mismanagement in treating our migrant workers, which resulted in an unprecedented scramble to return to their homes, amid panic, chaos and tragedy. Some 200 migrant workers have died on their way home, run over by trucks or trains, or of sheer exhaustion.

What could they have done to prevent this from taking place? To start with, the government could have offered more notice for a national lockdown, before shutting down the trains and highways, which could have allowed these workers to either return to their respective states or make necessary arrangements in the areas they were at the time residing in. Since they did not, the centre could have worked with the states to not just issue clear guidelines for inter-district and inter-state transportation of migrants but could have run dedicated transport corridors to bring those who wished to return back. We all know the unnecessary miscommunication and drama that took place when special trains were operationalized for these groups and yet there was no clarity on who would be paying for their tickets.

Finally, there are a number of other concrete measures that the government could have undertaken to ensure that adequate resources and support were provided to these groups. My own party has repeatedly urged the government to take up many of these—from ensuring access to food through the PDS system, to transferring Rs 10,000 to each individual using the existing Jan Dhan bank accounts, reversing the decision to suspend many of our labour laws, and so on.

If these steps had been followed and if some of these policy measures been rolled out in advance by the government, I am confident that much of the present crisis could have been averted and we would not have had to see the kind of hardships and loss of lives that have taken place.

The manner in which we have ‘unlocked’ is also seriously questionable. This government has, as Rajiv Bajaj pointed out, succeeded in flattening the wrong curve. As a result of their ineptitude, the economy is in doldrums which has forced the government to lift the lockdown at a time when we are witnessing over 15, 000 new cases each day. As a result, we are now confronted with the twin challenges of a stagnating economy and a health crisis that is in many ways exceeding the managing capacity of our existing infrastructure.

Opoyi: Do you think India is looking at a stagnant economy and anaemic GDP? If yes, what is the way out?

Shashi Tharoor: The government’s response to the pandemic has been exceedingly disappointing, bereft of any sort of transparency or economic rigour, and failing to protect India’s most vulnerable people. But it was not just the pandemic that led us to the mire we are currently trapped in. The present government has committed blunder after blunder: demonetisation’s destruction of the MSME sector, followed by the botched GST rollout and an unwillingness to face economic realities has meant that the economy has slowed dramatically. And all this from the party that claimed to be pro-business!

All over the world we have seen governments step in to revive their respective economies through a range of common strategies—incentives for small and medium businesses, tax cuts and allied incentives, strong government spending and stimulus packages, including in some cases where the government has offered to cover the wages of workers so that they will not be let go by their employers. India appears to be the only country in the world that has been caught napping and whose response has been bereft of any sense or preparedness and vision. It took 50 days post the commencement of the lockdown for the government to announce a package that was filled with illusory promises and little by means of addressing the immediate needs of vulnerable groups like our farmers and migrant workers. To share one more revealing example take the case of petrol prices— at a time of international lows in crude oil prices and when the government is well aware of the plight that the Indian people are facing, it has still chosen to increase the price of petrol for 21 days in a row by additional taxes! This is unbecoming of any democratically elected government that is now looking to fill its coffers at the expense of the public.

Opoyi: Do you think a radical shift in the global political economy is imminent in the post-Covid-19 world?

Shashi Tharoor: There is no doubt that the Covid-19 pandemic was a “mega-shock” to the global system—one that is likely to disrupt the existing world order. As sovereignties are reasserted across the world, and treaties and trade agreements increasingly questioned, multilateralism could be the next casualty. Those of us who had begun to imagine the globe as “one world” will have to revise our thinking.

Support for nationalist strongmen may increase exponentially. Unfounded rumours and accusations against people blamed on the basis of their national, religious, ethnic or regional identity have had a field day in many countries. In India, citizens from northeast have suffered racial discrimination because of their supposedly “Chinese” features. Social media and nativist populism have amplified prejudices; the fact that the Tablighi Jamaat gathering just before the lockdown—whose attendees spread the infection to many states when they returned home—was used to justify open bigotry and discrimination against Muslims. The current atmosphere has empowered those who seek to spread communal hatred and bigotry. Similar things have happened elsewhere in the world.

On the world political economy, seems increasingly likely that Covid-19 will inaugurate an era of deglobalisation. The signs are mounting that countries may embrace isolationism and protectionism in a far more enthusiastic way than prior to the outbreak, including in India. There is a rush to reset global supply chains and raise trade barriers. The demand for more protectionism and “self-reliance” (echoed in Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s call for “aatmanirbharta”), for bringing manufacturing and production value chains back home or at least closer to home, is mounting. So many things we’ve begin to take for granted — the global flow of capital and investments, multi-border pipelines and energy grids, even easy international travel across free and open borders — all seem vulnerable in the post-Covid-19 era.

Opoyi: Covid-19 has challenged our healthcare system like never before. Do you think India was found lacking?

Shashi Tharoor:In many ways the present crisis has exposed the fault lines in our existing healthcare infrastructure. The most systemic issue is that of low spending on healthcare in our country and of course the fact that this as an issue has not been given enough weightage by any political party (though this looks likely to change post the pandemic). The immediate concern is that the government has, as usual, maintained an incredible lack of transparency throughout the crisis. They opted to buy faulty test kits from China, at huge expense, rather than fostering their domestic development. Certain states have adopted parochial attitudes with regard to who they would accept for treatment. Case numbers are rising by the day due to the incompetent way the lockdown was implemented and managed. There have certainly been bright spots, however. Kerala’s response has led to low fatality and infection rates – because of early, effective action wedded with the potent assets of a politically conscious society, a highly literate population and historic emphasis by all ruling coalitions on socio-economic development. With extensive testing and contact tracing, and proactive action on arrival screening, quarantines, and bans on large gatherings, Kerala was ahead of the union government by a long shot. This is the legacy of decades of investment in public health and human-resource development, and I would certainly wish that the rest of the country would adopt its successful model.

Opoyi: How far you think will the Centre’s economic package go in allaying peoples’ distress?

Shashi Tharoor: As I mentioned, it took 50 days after the lockdown for the government to announce a financial package. And the numbers don’t add up anyway: the real figure of new money in the stimulus package is, by all accounts, way short of the announced Rs 20 lakh crores.

Even if we ignore the fine print of the announcements, a package with grand proposals and long-term measures will do little to address their immediate plight. The problem with this package is that it overlooks, to a significant degree, the most vulnerable people in our society. Farmers, for example, who have been hit very hard by the unplanned lockdown and have seen their supply chains destroyed, have received almost no help for their heavily indebted situations. It’s very difficult to imagine India being “atmanirbhar” in any real way until the government stops ignoring the hardships of our poorest while extending a helping hand to our richest.

What then is the use of the government’s grandstanding and soaring rhetoric on reviving our economy tomorrow when it simply fails to take care of the engines of that economy today?

Opoyi:  What is your take on the ongoing tension with China along the LAC in Ladakh?

Shashi Tharoor: I am extremely concerned, both by the brutal violence committed by Chinese troops, and by the lackadaisical response of our government to this attack. Twenty jawans were martyred while doing their duty, and the Prime Minister’s own statements have been contradictory and have not inspired confidence. If Chinese troops did not intrude on Indian territory, where and why were our jawans killed, in his view?

The facts suggest that this action was premeditated and calculated, and we must wake up to the increasing rapaciousness of China if we are to protect our frontiers. I had expressed my concern on this issue as Chairman of the Standing Committee on External Affairs in 2017, and made several recommendations on the matter. My concern has only grown. India must insist on restoration of the status quo ante (i.e. as of April). But by occupying positions they had not held before in the Galwan Valley and at Pangong Tso, China has unilaterally changed the status quo by force. These are areas India claimed and used to patrol, with both sides accepting there was a different perception of where the LAC lay. These events mean that China has de facto annexed disputed territory, made it impossible for India to patrol these areas as before, and entrenched themselves in positions overlooking Indian positions and with the capacity to interdict our vital DSBDO road. The restoration of the status quo ante is now impossible unless the Chinese withdraw, which looks unlikely given the equipment they have brought in and the construction activity they have started there. If India meekly accepts the new reality (as the PM’s statement implies he has), it is undoubtedly a setback.

Opoyi: In light of the map controversy, do you think India is losing its leverage in Nepal? Do you see the China hand?

Shashi Tharoor: I am seriously concerned at Nepal’s unilateral revision of regional maps. The roots of the problem undoubtedly lie in Nepali domestic politics, especially tensions within the ruling Communist Party. I have, however, argued that India’s increasingly hegemonic behaviour in the country, an attitude that has been developed and asserted during the reign of the present government, has led to alienation and resentment. I would urge the government to work for a swift resolution to this issue so that Indian sovereignty is no longer in question – as well as for the government to reconsider its own foreign-policy approaches.

Opoyi: You have often spoken strongly against the menace of fake news. What according to you is the remedy for this?

Shashi Tharoor: Fake news is a major scourge all over the world, and I’m sorry to say that this is certainly the case in India as well. Social-media firms who host the sites where such news is often shared definitely have a big role to play, in monitoring the content they host so as to remove fake and misleading news when it appears.

Fact-checking sites are doing a good job in exposing fake news when they can. The ultimate onus lies with public figures, however, who have a responsibility to double-check that what they share is legitimate. I’ve been “had” myself, and would certainly welcome systems and software that help further the fight against fake news.

Opoyi: Kerala has proved once again that it thrives in crises. What do you think is the secret code that works for Kerala?

Shashi Tharoor: As I suggested earlier [see answer 4], Kerala has long emphasised critical factors of human wellbeing – education and public health being primary among them. We have a long history, under various state governments, of investing in these sectors and ensuring that the residents of Kerala have access to the best healthcare and education possible. That is why we were much better prepared for a crisis of this nature, when compared to the rest of the country. We value the well-being of all people.

Opoyi: The Congress in Kerala has drawn flak over its alleged lack of constructive support regarding Covid activities in Kerala? What is your response to that?

Shashi Tharoor: I would certainly disagree. The Congress has worked extensively to combat the virus in Kerala, distributing aid supplies and supporting health workers. The party holds 15 of the 20 Lok Sabha seats in the state, and there is no doubt that our significant state-wide presence was an important contributing factor to Kerala’s success in the fight against the pandemic. The union government’s myopic decision to suspend our MPLADS funds has no doubt stymied the effectiveness of the response, but we have all done our best – and the results suggest that this went a long way.